Maya Ben David
Hopping the Fence Transcript – #19, Maya Ben David
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Hopping the Fence – S2E9: Maya Ben David
Hopping the Fence – S2E8: Maya Ben David
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RC: Hello, I’m Rebecca Casalino, and this is Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to talking to artists on the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
Maya Ben David or MBD is a Toronto-based Jewish-Iranian artist. Working in video, installation and performance, she creates worlds and characters that aid her ongoing exploration of anthropomorphism, cosplay and performative personas.
Our conversation was recorded in Hamilton within Treaty 3 territory on the ancestral land of the Haudenosaunee and Anishinaabe nations under the Dish With One Spoon wampum agreement.
This episode of Hopping the Fence contains discussions of antisemitism and the Holocaust.
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RC: Hey Maya!
MBD: Hi Rebecca!
RC: What are you up to, how's it going?
MBD: I'm sitting in my kitchen and I'm excited to talk to you.
RC: Yeah me too. I've been following your stuff because you went to Guelph as well as me for such a long time that I've been just like ambiently watching your videos, so I'm really excited to ask all the questions I've been thinkin’ about.
MBD: Aww. Well I'm excited to talk to you.
RC: But just to get us started, do you want to talk a little bit about your practice in general for audience members?
MBD: Sure. So I make costumes and characters and worlds about anthropomorphic objects and ideas, but I also just make things and art pieces about things that I'm obsessed about at the moment. So like I made a video about jiggle physics because I thought about this one video for a year and then I'm like, "I just can't take it, I have to make a video about it.” So it's basically whatever I feel like and I'm interested in.
RC: Jiggle physics is a good place to start because I feel like there's this kind of sexiness, both like, you directly say it in a lot of your videos but then underneath in a lot of your costuming. And I was wondering how you think about like, being sexy as an artist and being sexy on the internet and why that's an obsession, like why you keep going back to it.
MBD: Yeah, it's very important to me. It’s…I'd say it's an important part of one of the core things that I think about with my art because I usually have an anthropomorphic character, and then on top of that they're kind of sexy.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: I guess since I was a kid I've been obsessed with sexiness. I wanted to be hot always.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: I was really not hot in elementary school and it tore my brain apart that I wasn't hot and I tried everything to be hot. And so, I had pretty big boobs when I was a kid or young adult, so that was like the one thing that I clung to where I'm like, "This is my access to the hot universe." And then I later felt like I got hotter and got happier. I don't think that hotness is my key to happiness but it's just something that my brain has always been obsessed over. Also, how do I say this? I'm obsessed with the hotness of other people and how hotness changes all the time.
RC: Mmm.
MBD: And like, how the internet changes hotness. For example, what hotness looks like on TikTok looks completely different than what hotness looked like on Instagram –
RC: Mhm, mhm.
MBD: - four years ago. I guess it's a pretty basic obsession, it's kind of just obsession of beauty but I've always been interested in it and I think most artists think about sexiness in terms of objectification and the male gaze and women's bodies as seen by men. And I think about it in those terms too, but I also think of it in terms of like, I care about hotness and I like hot people and I like sexy things. So I'm also coming at it in like... I both see the criticalness about it and I also come to it with a pervy side.
RC: Yeah.
MBD: And I also want it for myself too. So it's all of those things together.
RC: Yeah, and your sexiness is like, kind of a very specific brand. Like you were saying the difference between TikTok and Tumblr, and I feel like yours comes from more of a nerddom and fanfiction. Would you say that's accurate, is that where you're drawing from?
MBD: I don't know. There's a lot of things that I specifically have always picked up on as hotness, but yeah. Fanfiction and I guess anime and 'cause I grew up watching so much anime, and beauty standards of when I was 14 are things that I still think about all the time.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: So yeah. Who knows all of the secret scary things that have like, made me think about sexiness the way I do right now. But I'm sure there's reasons that I don't even understand or know.
RC: But then we have the whole bimbo revolution and himbo revolution that's happening now. And I feel like your videos... like, you've always been doing this so they're not in response but they feel very topical right now.
MBD: Yeah. I'm happy for the bimbo and himbo revolution and thembo revolution to be happening in full force. That feels great and I'm happy that people are going to grow up with those influences as opposed to the ones that we grew up with.
RC: Mhm, mhm. To feel like it's changed your videos as this cultural shift just happened? To feel like you're more able to lean into that or it's changed how you're thinking about your work?
MBD: I think maybe it's refined my humour. I think I've always loved pretending I was dumb as a joke.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: I don't mean like pretending like making fun of people who don't understand things, I mean more like playing off of my own alienish proclivities I guess.
RC: Mmm.
MBD: Like things that I don't understand I've always just joked about them, and they've always been a joke but people haven't been in on the joke and they've just laughed at me not laughed with me.
RC: Yeah.
MBD: Now I'm like... I've seen how people can frame themselves as bimbos and their jokes can be molded and be seen like they have autonomy over their joke.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
MBD: And that's maybe refined how I frame my humour with bimbos and himbos and stuff like that.
RC: For me, I think about... you made this one video where you put two salt lamps in your bra and you're talking about your salt lamp breasts. And for me that was just such a reflection of the internet at that time. Everyone into wellness but also like, wanting to still be sexy. And it felt very honest in that kind of way. So it's interesting to hear that your humour has sharpened as other people have kind of gotten in on this.
MBD: Yeah, I still very passionately believe that no matter what subculture somebody is part of, they still want to feel attractive.
RC: And I think that subcultures is such a big part of your practice. Do you want to talk about the different subcultures that you draw from and the references that you use in your videos?
MBD: Yeah. I am always on Reddit because I think of myself and my boyfriend Iain thinks of me like this, where I'm like this plucky rat that carries a rucksack on my back and carries different bags of all of my goods. And I go to each Reddit subreddit and I'm peddling my wares to each of them, being like, "Maybe you'd be interested in this!"
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: "Perhaps you would like to watch my airplane video?" And mostly I get people that are like, "What the fuck is this?" I get downvotes obviously. Or I get like, "This is the wrong sub." I literally have gone onto so many subreddits and I just... I'm subscribed to all of them so I see all of them all the time, so I get to see all their updates and how they're evolving. I guess I like... I'm obsessed with subcultures. I want to be part of all of them and I wish I could've seen more of them when I was a kid. You know the internet wasn't as spectacular as it is right now.
RC: For sure.
MBD: So I was only able to see some things. But every scary or strange thing that I saw from the internet has made me a better person, even if it was like, very disturbing.
RC: Well I love - you recently posted that you got banned from the fine art reddit, right? [Laughs].
MBD: Yeah, yeah, I know. I mean, okay. So I also am on Facebook groups, 'cause you know I'm trying to peddle my wares everywhere.
RC: Oh of course.
MBD: So that way if I ever became famous people are like, "Oh, she worked really, really hard."
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: Just so people know I work very hard and it's very stressful. So I tried to peddle my wares on the Facebook art groups, and I peddle my wares and “weird art” group, and then there's another one called “very weird art” group. And then there's another one called “very weird dark art” group. And then there's like “dreamcore art” and there's “fairycore art” and there's all of these different things. And I tried to put my things in there. And mostly people hate me.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: And also the subreddits that are about art also hate me. But sometimes I'll get people who appreciate me.
RC: It feels like when you're posting on Facebook that you're in character. And I think that's why I like it so much.
MBD: Thank you.
RC: You posted something recently like, "All curators curate me now before I'm discovered and become famous." [Laughs].
MBD: Yeah. They really need to listen to that 'cause they're going to miss out on something very good.
RC: But I feel like that's how all artists feel and you're just like, saying it and it's just so funny.
MBD: Thank you. Yeah, I mean... should we just be like, bullying curators more?
RC: Yes.
MBD: Yeah that's what I think.
RC: You're making me is really produce... especially you just released one of your short films. And I was wondering about script writing and writing in your practice. Are you doing these videos off the cuff or do you have a formal writing practice?
MBD: I wouldn't call it formal. It's more just me sitting and having an idea and maybe having a brain explosion, which is what I call getting a really good idea and having to write it down. And then...so I write my brain explosion down and I go walk around. Sometimes I call Jess and Claudia and I'm like, "What do you think of this idea?" And I give them my pitch.
RC: Nice.
MBD: So I can kind of hash out that idea more. And...yeah. I would say I'm not a writer but I do write most of my scripts and I do go off of it sometimes.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: But words and speaking is a relatively new thing in my practice just in the last couple of years so I'm still trying to work on that.
RC: It was surprising to me when you first started doing it because I thought, "Oh my gosh, does she have a script? This is so much work."
MBD: I definitely have a script and it's hard to memorize.
RC: Yeah, geez. It's almost like you're making yourself into an actor as well as a performance artist at this point.
MBD: Yeah. I'm not a good actor but my boyfriend Iain is a really good acting coach so I'll ask him secret tips about how to do it. And that's made me a little bit better.
RC: And is he also your vocal coach too?
MBD: Hell yeah he is.
RC: I remember you did the popcorn ceiling maiden in performance at the Chinatown Centre, and you were talking about learning to sing. How long have you been learning to sing now and what does that look like and what is your practice feel like now?
MBD: Well, I was taking formal lessons for a while. My singing teacher was really, really cool. And I liked it because it's kind of like an athletic sport.
RC: Mmm.
MBD: You have to stand in a really, really specific way. And even if you're not feeling well or you're not putting... you're not using your body and your hands, your singing isn't going to be good. So I got to learn all that stuff which was really cool. I do sing in some of my videos now. I don't take formal lessons anymore 'cause they're really expensive, but maybe when I become rich I'll take them again.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: But yeah, I like it a lot because it's like a sport. I like learning new things and I want to do it more. But I'm not good at singing, just so we clarify that.
RC: I feel like the songs that you choose are also... I'm very into drag and performance and music is a very big part of drag at least for me. And the songs that you choose are very emotional, like very specific. And then you singing them adds this other layer. What's your relationship with music? I feel like the songs you're choosing have a lot of meaning to you as well.
MBD: [Chuckles]. I don't really like music that much.
RC: Ahh.
MBD: Yeah I don't really like music, it's annoying to me! But I like narrative songs that I'm like, “ Oh, there's a story here." And this will make the audience feel connected and this makes me feel like this is MY story. Or it's epic or cheesy, and I like those kinds of songs.
RC: Yeah.
MBD: But typically I don't like music, so I will only choose things that I feel are epic or narrative.
RC: For sure. That makes a lot of sense. Is it Joseph and the Technicolor Dreamcoat that you were drawing from? Some of those songs?
MBD: Yeah.
RC: I'd love to talk about you being a storyteller. Because you directly reference that in a couple of your YouTube videos, but it's also like, the more you go into narrative the more you can see the stories coming together.
MBD: Thank you. I'd say I'm a noob when it comes to story-telling. I would like it if I could have a wonderful rich universe.
RC: Yes.
MBD: Where I keep building off of it. I think right now my pieces are kind of stand-alone. They do relate and intersect with each other.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: But I don't revive my characters and enrich their lives over and over again. So that's something I want to do in the future.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: But I am interested in storytelling. Originally all my videos were just experiences. Like you would meet one character and just jump into their world and then that was it and I didn't talk or anything.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: But now I'm trying to enrich all of their stories. I know that's very not art. But I like it so that's what I'm doing.
RC: Well I was thinking like, art is so afraid of being entertainment –
MBD: I know.
RC: - which is why I think a lot of artists are so scared of YouTube.
MBD: Yeah.
RC: But I find that that's what makes it so accessible. And even you being Snake Moses at Art Toronto just made me laugh so hard.
MBD: [Laughs].
RC: Again, growing up with those stories and then seeing your twist on it, and then you bringing the stories to life in a very relevant in this moment kind of way. But I feel like you're bringing back your characters a little bit. Snake Moses is somebody that comes back a couple times...
MBD: Mhm.
RC: Is there a favourite character that you have that you're really want to bring back in upcoming projects?
MBD: I'm actually making a video right now with Iain where he's going to be an HR specialist and fire all of my characters.
RC: Ooh.
MBD: And it's going to be about getting fired and what it means to be fired and all of them are going to be fired in a way that's true to their actual... to the object they actually are. So Air Canada Gal is now a danger and she has to be retired as an airplane.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: Popcorn Ceiling Maiden has to be scraped off of a wall so she's like dying. So…I would say I don't want to revisit and re-enrich these characters, but I do want to say a little conclusion or like hi and goodbye and then...to them. And it doesn't mean they're gone forever, I just want to check in on them, you know?
RC: [Laughs]. But your work also exists in these formal contemporary spaces like Samara Contemporary in Kensington, where you did your Mold Maid performance. How do you feel like, does the work change or do you have to change it to make it in real life or gallery spaces versus like YouTube or hosting it online?
MBD: My YouTube work is so different, or I wouldn't say so different but it's pretty different from my live performance work.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: Because one's more like theatre and one's more... visual screen-based.
RC: Mmm.
MBD: So there's a lot of editing that is involved in my YouTube videos, but then performances I'll make more sets. I haven't done a lot of live performances, but there'll be more coordination and more dance numbers or something like that.
RC: Mmm.
MBD: I'll be more aware of my visual... like my surrounding space. And I'll also like, when you do a live performance you wait for the laughs and you wait for the reactions and you pause and you look at the people there, but you don't do that in a video. So the energy’s a lot different.
RC: I'd love to talk about your prop-making. The Mold Maid cave itself was like its own artwork.
MBD: Thank you.
RC: And now in all your videos I got to see your other amazing 3D then painted props. How do you approach all these and like, what's the thought that goes into all these props that you make?
MBD: The thought goes in where I am thinking of a scene, like I have a script and I'm thinking of a scene, and I want to show something or I want to have an interesting background or interact with something. And then I could just green screen something but it might be more exciting if I were to make it. So I just spend a couple days obsessing over how to make an ancient-looking book. Or how to make a gun. I made a gun for my jiggle physics video and that was really fun. And I still have that gun in my house and if someone ever breaks that I'm going to pull out my fake gun. And that makes me feel really...I don't know, it's fun to make all of these things 'cause like, they’re only shown for a millisecond in my videos. But I think it makes people feel... they trust me more when I put that work in to all of those small things. It means I care about them having fun in my video if you work hard on the props. And I really liked making the cave in the jiggle physics video with all of the hot girls on it.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: That was really fun.
RC: I feel like that brings us back to Air Canada Girl and your vore obsession.
MBD: Mmm, yeah. I think I love vore.
RC: Do you want to explain four and the vore kind of...lore? Oh my gosh I hate myself. [Both laugh].
MBD: Vore lore!
RC: The vore lore that you dove into.
MBD: Yeah, I honestly should do more vore stuff. Vorarephilia is when you desire to be consumed whole by a person or being, or you want to devour somebody else. I love vore. I think it's a very cool subculture and I'm happy that I live in a time where it is being realized on the internet. I follow a bunch of really, really good vore Instagram accounts.
RC: Awesome.
MBD: And reddits obviously.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: And there's a lot of nuance to it that people don't understand. A lot of it can be very romantic. It can also be platonic, like it's often seen as sexual but it can also be like, "Oh, I love you so much, I want to be inside of your stomach and be consumed by you and cuddled by your innards." Or like, "I love you so much I wanna swallow you." And sometimes it's evil. Sometimes it's like, "You were mean to me, so I wanna swallow you and then poo you and then you're shit."
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: Yeah, I know, it's wild, it's so good. And it's not possible in real life because the whole part of vorarephilia is that you're consumed whole. It's not cannibalism it's like a magic thing that happens. And sometimes the character just lives happily in the stomach, and sometimes they get eroded by stomach acids. So it's really up to the artist of what happens. But I've done a couple of different vore things for my art.
RC: Yeah, it reminds me of like Kirby eating people and then spitting them back out, like a very wholesome kind of vore moment there.
MBD: Yeah and Noah, the whale devours Noah whole.
RC: Definitely, definitely.
MBD: Lots of vore.
RC: But the humour that you use in your videos and in your practice in general is so specific. It really feels like that's your voice. If you want to speak to that and your use of Jewish humour, I think that would be really cool to hear your thoughts and feelings.
MBD: Well, I try to be funny in my videos. I try to make some jokes. And mostly I do it by making personas and having... so I guess I'm not like a stand-up comedian where I'm like cracking jokes. It’s more like I make these unusual characters that have strange perspectives on things. Or like, they embody a certain trope and they keep pushing the trope to absurdity.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: And that becomes sometimes funny. And yeah, sometimes funny. My humour is like Jewish humour. Lots of people with defined Jewish humour differently. I would define it as kind of a dark humour.
RC: Mmmm.
MBD: It's self-reflective. It's calling attention to scary or strange things and normalizing it to an extent where it's a bit uncomfortable.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: But people could probably give a different answer than I am. But that's maybe how I think of it. Like, for example, I grew up and my whole family talked about the Holocaust casually always. My family likes to say that we grew up in a Holocaust household because like, it's just on our mind all the time. So like, I wouldn't say, we don't make Holocaust jokes as in antisemitic people make Holocaust jokes which are like gas chamber jokes or something. It's more like very intricate, specific jokes that relate to my grandparents' experience in the Holocaust. We just grew up talking about it so casually that it's just something we always talk about. And we talk about it in a multifaceted different way.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: And that's similar to how I make jokes in my videos. But I usually...I only make jokes about things that I'm very intimately connected to.
RC: Yeah...yeah. And like, you're talking about intergenerational trauma in your latest short film I think was a really good example of that. Even Snake Girl, being a snake in itself is kind of... obviously in Catholic or Christian mythology, a snake is bad. So, I think about you turning this snake girl into this wholesome character also feels very funny to me.
MBD: Yeah, also in Nazi Germany there were posters they put up, the Nazi party put up about... where it's like a big muscular hand, like Nazi hand, and it's strangling a snake, and the snakes are the Jewish people. And it said something like, "You have to stamp out the rodents and the vermin."
RC: Ooh.
MBD: So Jews are often compared to vermin, so that's a big connection to it too.
RC: I really like to cuddling, as a snake cuddling with the rodents that you had in your hyperbolic chamber. I thought that was really wholesome.
MBD: Yeah, they're my friends. Snake Girl is a very...she's a very wholesome character. I almost hate her for that.
RC: Ah, [Laughs].
MBD: Because I wrote it like this, I had to be the plucky protagonist character. I mean, I didn't have to be but I wrote her to be like that.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
MBD: Usually my characters are a lot weirder but she was a straight edge, wholesome sweetheart, yeah.
RC: For sure. And I think like, because the story that you're telling is so serious and so painful, it makes sense for her to be like that as well, two kind of contrast.
MBD: Yeah and she's also told from the perspective of a World War II crank siren, who is like the narrator and the framer of the story. And so I think of this crank siren wanting to tell this revenge story to these Holocaust shoes, to help them deal with their PTSD and to cope with what happened to their owners, and so she wants to make an idealized story for the shoes, where there is a happy protagonist that saves the day.
RC: Mhm, mhm. I thought that was really beautiful. I think a lot of images of the Holocaust, we see the shoes, we see everybody's wedding rings and Jewelry.
MBD: Yeah.
RC: So you're personifying the shoes really brought it back to people for me.
MBD: Oh that's great. I didn't originally have... that's a new character that I made that I didn't have before, so I was wondering how people read that character.
RC: Yeah, I really loved it!
MBD: Thank you.
RC: Especially the decay and this object being picked up and put in a museum. Like, that something that's happening right now and everybody's thinking about what belongs in a museum, what's important. But also I felt like... the siren almost felt like a my little toaster reference, the sound and the fear that is created, it very much felt like you were a children's character...there to tell the story.
MBD: Yeah, she did kind of seem like a nice old grandpa that's like, "Come on in, I'm going to tell you a story of my youth." Yeah, it was framed like I’m about to tell you a fantastical story.
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RC: This week’s podcast recommendation is the podcast series Missing and Murdered: Finding Cleo. Where is Cleo? Taken by child welfare workers in the 1970’s and adopted in the U.S., the young Cree girl’s family believes she was attacked and murdered while hitchhiking back home to Saskatchewan. CBC news investigative reporter Connie Walker joins the search to find out what really happened to Cleo.
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RC: Yeah, I really...your characters almost feel... A lot of them are very degraded in a specific way, like Mold Maid, and now this crank siren. What's the aesthetic approach that you take to your characters like whether they're sexy or degraded or sexy and degraded, you know?
MBD: Well, when I was in art school...
RC: [Chuckles].
MBD: I didn't read most... okay, I read the things that we had to read because we had homework about them. but I didn't care about most of them.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: Except for this piece about the grotesque. And I was like, "Ooh. I'm interested in the grotesque." Actually my mom... I think she studied the grotesque when she was in school -
RC: Oh cool.
MBD: - so hi mom if you're listening to this. That was one thing that stuck with me. I really liked having characters that were both sexy and gross and repulsive and scary and like, broken or breaking.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
MBD: I like gross things personally. I find them cute, like I find mould kind of cute.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: And that's ... most of my art tries to find cuteness in gross things, so that's maybe my interest in it. Purely academic.
RC: Purely academic, into the cuteness.
MBD: But also yeah, I just think it's cute.
RC: [Laughs]. That's so cool. I love...the theory that really sticks with people is sometimes so random but also can set you on this really cool path. Do you want to talk about collaborating with your family, like your mom and your brother a little bit?
MBD: Yeah I do. My mom is in her own rite, an extremely talented artist. She makes very grotesque and strange and wonderful ceramic pieces -
RC: Amazing.
MBD: - that are something that I could never make. There's scary, distorted creatures coming out of all of her pieces and I really wanna do a show with her one time. But she helps me make my costumes and she helps me make my... sometimes she helps me make my sets or props pieces. She sometimes helps me film some things. She's just the best and so intelligent and creative. And she helped me so much with my videos. And also like, I don't know, I don't think I'd be able to do what I do right now if I didn't have a mom that was insanely supportive of me doing really weird things.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: And I'm sure her own weirdness inspired me. My brother is also a very weird artist. He's a musician but he also went to art school. And he knows that I don't like music but he knows my tastes in music so he makes very strange pieces for me. And he's very talented like genius musician. And I just like working with him. I'll call him and be like, "This is what the video's about, and I'm thinking about Naruto soundtrack and Edward Scissorhands, and it gets ominous over here." And then he knows what I'm talking about. And then he makes magic for me. And yeah, I like working with my family because it feels cozy and it feels like a cute little community.
RC: Have you always liked worked with them on crafts and art things? Or is this something that when you started your practice you got more into?
MBD: No I... I mean, I did crafts with my mom all the time when I was a kid and we made art stuff all the time.
RC: Cute.
MBD: But I wouldn't say that we were all working on art together through my teenhood or something like that. It's something that when I was making art, I started making art more seriously, I just started talking on the phone with my mom more about everything.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: We just got a lot closer and she's just really smart and she has really good opinions about art does she would help me a lot. And my brother did too. My brother also when I was in high school once gave me the best art idea and I got a really good mark on it.
RC: [Laughs]. And then I was curious... Your YouTube channel is something that you've recently really dove into. And this Patreon setup that you have to fund your art. I feel like... in my brain, you're a very established artist human and you should be living off your art practice, but I understand that videos are hard to make a living off of, [laughs].
MBD: Yeah, they really are. Thank you for saying that though by the way.
RC: Yeah, I don't know, I guess because also you were somebody that had graduated while I was still in school. And like, just watching you from the outside it felt like you had this community support but like monetizing it is so hard. And you need to pay for all the supplies to make all these props, geez.
MBD: Yeah. I mean, I'm still in deficit every time... I'm not like in money deficit but every time I make an art project it's very expensive.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
MBD: And like I guess I talk to a lot of people now about this but like, I don't trust the art world to protect me anymore.
RC: Yeah.
MBD: I don't have these fantastical dreams about one day I'm going to become so big in the art world that I'm going to be able to like, afford to live just on my art. Like I don't think that's possible for many video artists.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: Maybe it's true for like Ryan Trecartin, I don’t know. Maybe not even. I just know, I went into the art world and I met all the people that I was so inspired by that I consider to be like famous artists, and all of them have other jobs.
RC: Yeah, yeah.
MBD: So now I'm like DESPERATELY trying to get YouTube subscribers. You should all subscribe to me please. And then I have Patreon. And I like my patrons, they're very nice. And I like doing that. And I make a little bit of money from Patreon. And then maybe one day I'll become famous and be able to pay rent with that money.
RC: Goals, honestly. Yeah, I love your sexy drawings, or your commission drawings that you do through your Patreon. I feel like that's such a generous thing to do for people, to make them custom drawings.
MBD: I like doing it. It's not even generous. Like, I... first of all, all of my patrons, I think I have like five people that I make drawings for 'cause that's all I have the energy to do every month.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: But all of the requests are... first of all very generous. They kind of…each of them kind of say in their own way like, "Well, I kind of want to make something that you would want to make."
RC: Aww.
MBD: So they make requests that are like... they're often like... careful. I'd say most people are like, "Are you okay with drawing that?" And I'm like, "Yes, I'm okay with drawing that." So everybody who requests drawings from me are very sweet and I love hearing the strange requests. And it also gives me a mental refresh of like, yeah, I'm not making... this isn't me trying to make content, I'm just giving somebody a gift. Even though they are paying for it every month.
RC: Mhm, mhm.
MBD: But I try really hard on them.
RC: Aww. I love that. And I think it's a meaningful way also to connect with your audience too. You're literally engaging with their fantasies and their ideas.
MBD: Yeah. And I don't know, it's fun. You know I care about sexiness so like, I hella care what somebody wants me to make for a sexy drawing.
RC: For sure. Oh my gosh, the show that you were in at The Plumb with Iain singing over top was the sexiest but also like, creepiest thing that I have ever seen.
MBD: [Laughs]. Ahh, that's funny!
RC: Like his voice ambiently going through the gallery was so funny. Just walking through and just hearing this little sing-song kind of children's thing, but also the booty...what were the characters you were interacting with? I can't remember their names.
MBD: Okay, they are Scrump Runts. And they are the cutest, sexiest little woodland creatures that ever existed. And yeah, Iain singing in it is...I don't know, he's a professional singer. By the way, I wanna say Iain who I'm referencing is Iain Soder and he's part of the collective Tough Guy Mountain. And I referenced Jess Eisner before and Claudia Rick and they're both really great artists too, so everybody should check out all of their work. The Scrump Runts are an inside joke between us two.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: They're a creature that we've created and we keep making it... I don't know, they're like a creature that follows us around in the house. They're also me, they're also him.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: He's the Diaper Man, I'm the Scrump Runt. We change it up. Unfortunately, the world has not seen how wonderful and sexy the Scrump Runts are but they will one day.
RC: One day. Anybody who saw the Plumb show, they understand now.
MBD: Okay I'm glad. [Laughs].
RC: And there was also that... I think it was a birthday present you made for him where it was like within an egg.
MBD: Oh yeah.
RC: I think about that a lot.
MBD: I made a video of how to make that. I'm going to make that into something, but I just have to figure out what.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: But yeah, it was an amazing birthday present wasn't it?
RC: It was. Do you want to describe how you made it really quick? 'Cause it was very intensive, the way that you did it, [laughs].
MBD: Yeah. So basically, somebody has presented with a large-ish ceramic egg. I don't know how to describe the scale because I'm really bad at scale. Like, a pretty large hefty, two cups. Like, they're in your hand and you're like, "Woah, that's heavy." And it's spotted so it's pretty. And the person, well, Iain, unwrapped it. And I gave him a hammer and I'm like, "You have to break it open." And you know, there's always this discomfort of like, breaking art.
RC: Yeah.
MBD: But he took the hammer and gently tapped it open. And it breaks apart, and then inside, there's like fluffy stuff inside, and then you open that up and there's three precious little figurines that are inside.
RC: Aww.
MBD: And I've made different figurines. I've made this a couple of different times. And I kind of want to make it into art pieces... maybe I'll do that in the future. But I just make like sexy little anthros in there. But for him I made special little figurines that had to do with our inside jokes.
MBD: Aww, so cute.
RC: Yeah I think also like shattering an egg is also like, very faux pas, you know?
MBD: Oh it is faux pas, but it's so much fun.
RC: [Laughs]. I feel like the artworks that you make...the props that you're making are in themselves artworks that you make for these performances and for these videos. Do you want to talk about your centaur costume remake? 'Cause I feel like that's a really big one. Even the first iteration was very intense. [Laughs].
MBD: Yeah. It's my magnificent terrible art piece that I will keep destroying and remaking for the rest of my life. Three years ago, I made a centaur costume. So basically, it's a horse body that goes behind me and the legs move. And I worked really frickin' hard on it. And the legs did move but very poorly. And I walked sooo slowly. And I did a performance, and I didn't even like... I walked so slowly that I didn't even really get there in time with the centaur costume. And it just didn't really work even though it looked cool. Anybody who sees some sort of big costume, they're like, "Wow, cool." But I was still unhappy. And so for three years this centaur carcass has been in my room and it's just been haunting me because it's very large and broken and it reminds me of all the things I haven't done yet.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: And so I finished my Snake Girl film which was thing that I also started three years ago. And I'm like, "You know what? I'm gonna resurrect this baby and make it better." So I purchased a centaur-making guide book.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: And that is by Ginny Di and she's a cosplayer and she's very talented. And she made a fully functional moving centaur.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: And so I took her guide and I added onto the things that I learned from making the centaur beforehand. And I'm almost done my centaur right now. And it is a big boy... it looks good I think. And now I have to make an art project around it, 'cause I just get so absorbed with the centaur, I forget that it needs more than just existing.
RC: Mmm, it needs the narrative around it. Oh, so you haven't decided on the narrative for the centaur piece yet.
MBD: I have a soft narrative right now. I don't know if you... you do know this because you bought something from me that I had an e-commerce business for a while. Like, you bought a...
RC: The embroidery kit.
MBD: You bought an embroidery kit, exactly.
RC: Yeah.
MBD: So I had an e-commerce business on Etsy for a while. But in a lot of ways Etsy is a scam because most platform capitalism is a scam because the only person that's really benefitting from it is the platform itself because they take a huge cut and they always encourage... they highly, highly encourage free shipping because they're competing with Amazon.
RC: Mmm.
MBD: So you are expected to bite the shipping cost all the time. So you're actually making very little. So I want to make a performance piece where I destroy my e-commerce business.
RC: [Laughs].
MBD: And so I thought I'd have a villain character as a centaur, and she's trying to peddle her wares and make her life sounds like it's really exciting and wonderful and she's her own entrepreneur and doing so well and you could be doing as well as she is if you just quit your job and work full time on an Etsy account.
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: So I'm thinking of doing that. I wanted to make an evil sea shanty about e-commerce businesses but I'm not sure yet so this is still pending.
RC: Evil sea shanty, I can't, [laughs].
MBD: Yeah.
RC: It feels like you're also talking about multi-level marketing schemes.
MBD: Yes.
RC: Like, "Oh, give up your life and sell these creams and essences," you know?
MBD: Yeah and they feed off of the fact that we all know that capitalism is the worst thing ever. So nobody wants to be working a minimum-wage job where they're not respected. Also it's a lie... usually a lie that working with an e-commerce business is going to give you more money than that terrible capitalist job. And also you're like, you're selling goods for...and you're like, sometimes making the price higher... I don't know.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: It's a scam for sure. And it also feels like you're riffing on, like you said, and I really relate to this, the art world isn't going to protect you.
MBD: Yeah.
RC: Like it doesn't offer any safety. And it does almost feel like a marketing scheme. Being like, "Come and put all your effort into all this stuff, but we're not gonna pay you."
MBD: Yeah and like Etsy... so Etsy also has this veneer of being beautiful and handmade and artist-made, and so you picture a sweet little cherub in a forest, putting something together and being like, "Here, enjoy this I hope you like it." But there’s a lot of TikToks where people are like, "I woke up this morning and I had 300 purchases on my Etsy account."
RC: Oh my gosh.
MBD: So there's like this American dream that's being sold right now. And I fell for it. Everybody here, I was scammed! Rebecca saw my business so she knows. You got an embroidery kit which I'm happy for. But now I have so much product in my house.
RC: Oh nooo.
MBD: Yeah, it's okay because I'm going to use this project to destroy my company and sell all of this product.
RC: Yeah, it's just such a struggle like figuring out what your quote unquote side hustle is going to be as an artist. And like, I understand trying out different things and... I don't know, just trying to hustle as best you can. And falling flat is something that's going to happen.
MBD: Yeah how do you deal with that?
RC: A part of me deals with it with the podcast. 'Cause like, as much as I do want to make money off my own art, it makes me uncomfortable to kind of do that? So I'd almost rather make money by presenting other artists. And that's kind of why I wanted to be a curator as my job, so I could just be an artist. But I've learned that being a curator is a lot like being an artist in that you don't get paid. [Laughs].
MBD: [Laughs]. Also like, I think there's this thing, correct me if I'm wrong curator, but I think there's this thing in the art world where like people befriend you because they want a curator connection as opposed to a friendship or an art connection or that they admire you or respect you.
RC: Mhm.
MBD: I've heard this from curator friends. I can't speak for curators but maybe you can talk about that.
RC: Yeah I don't know. There's a weird imbalance. And I think like, me as an artist curator...'cause like, even when I'm curating thinks I'm still at artist so I definitely approach it differently. And talking to other curators, they get confused when I say I'm an artist curator. So it's definitely different. But there's a weird power imbalance. I really like those memes that go around of comparing the artist and the curator. Like…Kim Kardashian wore that Met Gala thing where she's like a shadow.
MBD: Yeah.
RC: And then she's beside someone else and the person in the full dress is the artist and then the shadow is the curator, and I think that makes me laugh. [Both laugh].
MBD: Yeah. It's double interesting because you're a curator and an artist –
RC: Yeah.
MBD: - so those lines are maybe blurred a bit more. But maybe it's more healthy that way.
RC: I think so. I think a curator that hasn't made any art isn't going to have as much sympathy about failing and about needing to change things.
MBD: Yeah.
RC: Like, I don't know, when an artist comes up to me and is like, "Oh, can we do this?" I'm like, "Yeah, we'll do it and we'll make it work." Versus like, "It's not in the budget." You know?
MBD: Mmmm, okay, okay.
RC: I don't know. That's just me. But also, does that mean I have a budget? No. [Both laugh].
MBD: I hope one day you get such a big budget.
RC: I know, for you too as well.
MBD: Thank you.
RC: Maybe I'll have big-budgets.
MBD: May we all have big budgets!
RC: Oh my gosh that's such a good way to end. [Both laugh].
MBD: Yeah.
[Theme music fades in]
RC: Thanks for listening to Hopping the Fence, a podcast dedicated to the fringes of the Canadian art scene.
If you have an artist that you would like to hear interviewed, would like to correct / fact check a past episode, or would like to chat, feel free to send me a message on Instagram @hoppingthefence, or by email at rebeccaecasalino@gmail.com. Thanks to the OCAD Student Union for your financial support. Thank you to all of our Patreons for your ongoing support. It truly does help me avoid burnout and keeps this podcast rolling. If you would like to support Hopping the Fence, please visit our Patreon to subscribe. Check out the show notes for more details. If you can’t donate, no worries. Thanks for taking the time to listen.
Audio editing for Hopping the Fence by Emily Reimer. Original artwork by Alex Gregory, and original music by Jessica Price Eisner.
Thank you so much, bye!
[Theme music fades out]